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Strength and Conditioning Programs: Crossfit for Baseball?Written on September 14, 2009 at 7:25 pm, by Eric Cressey I’ve received a lot of emails just recently (as well as some in-person questions) asking me what I think of Crossfit for strength and conditioning programs with baseball players and, more specifically, pitchers. Let me preface this email with a few qualifying statements. First, the only exercise “system” with which I agree wholeheartedly is my own. Cressey Performance programming may be similar in some respects to those of everyone from Mike Boyle, to Louis Simmons, to Ron Wolforth, to the Crossfit folks – but taken as a whole, it’s entirely unique to me. In other words, I will never agree completely with anyone (just ask my wife!).
Second, in spite of the criticism Crossfit has received from some people I really respect, I do feel that there are some things they’re doing correctly. For starters, I think that the camaraderie and enthusiasm that typifies their training groups is fantastic; anything that gets people (who might otherwise be sedentary) motivated to exercise is a plus. Moreover, they aren’t proponents of steady-state cardio for fat loss, and they tend to gravitate toward compound movements. So, good on them for those favorable traits. Additionally, I know some outstanding coaches who run Crossfit franchises, so their excellent skill sets may be overshadowed by what less prepared coaches are doing simply because they have the same affiliation. However, there are several issues that concern me with applying a Crossfit mentality to the baseball world: 1) The randomness of the “workout of the day” is simply not appropriate for a sport that has quite possibly the most specific sport-imposed asymmetries in the world of athletics. I’ve written about these asymmetries in the past, and they can only be corrected with specific corrective training modalities. I’m reminded of this constantly at this time of year, as we get new baseball players at all levels now that seasons are wrapping up. When a player presents with a 45-degree glenohumeral internal rotation deficit, a prominent scapular dyskinesis, terrible right thoracic rotation, a big left rib flair, a right hip that’s stuck in adduction, and a complete lack of rotary stability, the last thing he needs to do is a 15-minute tri-set of cleans, kipping pull-ups, and push-ups – following by some 400m sprints. It not only undermines specificity of exercise selection, but also the entire concept of periodization.
Getting guys strong isn’t hard. Neither is getting them powerful or building better endurance. Finding the right mix to accomplish all these initiatives while keeping them healthy is the challenge. 2) The energy systems development found in Crossfit is inconsistent with the demands of baseball. I wrote extensively about my complete and utter distaste for distance running in the baseball world, and while Crossfit doesn’t go this far, in my eyes, anything over 60yds is “excessive distance” for baseball guys. Most of my guys sprint two times a week during the off-season, and occasionally we’ll go to three with certain athletes. Let’s just say that elite sprinters aren’t doing Crossfit, and the energy systems demands of baseball players aren’t much different than those of elite sprinters. 3) I have huge concerns about poor exercise technique in conditions of fatigue in anyone, but these situations concern me even more in a population like baseball players that has a remarkably high injury rate as-is. The fact that 57% of pitchers suffer some sort of shoulder injury during each season says something. Just think of what that rate is when you factor in problems in other areas, too! The primary goal should not be entertainment or variety (or “muscle confusion,” for all the morons in pro baseball who call P90X their “hardcore” off-season program). Rather, the goals should be a) keeping guys on the field and b) safe performance enhancement strategies (in that order).
As an example, all I need to do is look back on a program we used in one of our first pro pitchers back for the off-season last fall. He had a total of 20 pull-up and 64 push-up variation reps per week (in addition to some dumbbell bench pressing and loads of horizontal pulling/scapular stability/cuff work). This 84-rep figure might be on the low-end of a Crossfit program for a single day. Just like with throwing, it’s important to do things RIGHT before even considering doing them A LOT. 4) Several of the exercises in typical Crossfit programs (if there is such a thing) concern me in light of what we know about baseball players. I’ll cover this in a lot more detail in an article within the next few weeks, but suffice it to say that most have significant shoulder (if not full-body) laxity (acquired and congenital), abnormal labral features, partial thickness supraspinatus tears, poor scapular upward rotation, retroversion (gives rise to greater external rotation), and diminished rotator cuff strength in the throwing shoulder (particularly after a long season). Most pro pitchers will have more than 190 degrees of total motion at the shoulder, whereas many of the general population folks I encounter rarely exceed 160 degrees.
In short, the shoulders you are training when working with baseball players (and pitchers, in particular) are not the same as the ones you see when you walk into a regular ol’ gym. Want proof? Back in 2007, on my first day working with a guy who is now a middle reliever in the big leagues, I started to teach him to front squat. He told me that with only the bar across his shoulder girdle, he felt like his humerus was going to pop out of the socket. Not surprisingly, he could contort his spine and wrists like a 14-year-old female gymnast. This laxity helps make him a great pitcher, but it would destroy him in a program where even the most conservative exercises are done to the point that fatigue compromises ideal form. And, let’s be honest; if I was dumb enough to let someone with a multi-million dollar arm do this, I’d have agents and GMs and athletic trainers from a lot of major league systems coming after me with baseball bats! 5) Beyond just “acts of commission” with inappropriate exercise selection and volume, there are also “acts of omission.” For example, a rotational sport like baseball requires a lot of dedicated work to address thoracic spine and hip mobility and anti-extension and anti-rotatoin core stability. If you exhaust your training time and recovery capacity with other things, there may not be enough time or energy to pay attention to these important components. All that said, I would encourage anyone who deals with baseball players to learn to borrow bits and pieces from a variety of methods available today. Along the way, take into account the unique characteristics of the overhead throwing athlete and manage accordingly. Simply saying “I’m a Crossfit guy” and adhering to an approach that was never intended for a baseball population does a huge disservice to the athletes that count on you to bring them the most up-to-date, cutting-edge training practices available. If you’re interested in learning more about some of the asymmetries and training techniques I noted above, I’d strongly encourage you to check out Optimal Shoulder Performance, where both Mike Reinold and I go into some detail on assessment and corrective exercise for pitchers in this seminar (and there’s also a lot more fantastic information for anyone looking to develop pitchers). You can buy it HERE, or learn more about it HERE.
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September 14th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Nice job Eric.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Eric,
Outstanding article. I completely agree – I’ve been rethinking how I want to train my pitchers as well. “Specialization is for insects” and all that is fine for novice athletes – and that’s often who I work with – and while I don’t disagree that compound lifts and explosive movements should form the core of any program for a baseball player, the reality is that the game is NOT a generic strength/speed activity. We must pay specific attention to contraindicated exercises and tailor the program as specifically as possible to each athlete – training a starting pitcher the same way you train a catcher would be insanity!
Lots to think about. Great blog post.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Thought this video would be interesting in terms of the shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA39l8fGeg4
September 14th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
I own a crossfit facility AND I generally agree with everything you are saying. Energy systems specificity, check. Structural imbalances, check. I would however argue about the potential of the kipping pull up as a REHAB agent. It may sound ridiculous, but used in a safe, incremental manner this movement progression has impressive mobility potential. I have a sneaky suspicion a shoulder that is incapable of dynamic loading from a hanging position is actually prone to injury…our ancestors spent a lot of time in that position.
Also, not everyone in the organization is ignorant of the need to address structural imbalances and the demands of energy system specific sports.
Either way, good stuff and I enjoy your work.
September 15th, 2009 at 1:27 am
well said
September 15th, 2009 at 6:22 am
Usually like your stuff. This one I just cant understand. CrossFit is GPP. Who claimed it was the perfect solution for baseball? What? You are arguing the obvious here.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Nice article, but I wish I read it yesterday before my first CF workouts–sitting down hurts! They do allow for substitutions and I won’t do anything beyond my current capabilities. I do like the way the CF crowd is encouraging.
September 15th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Great article Eric! As always, you were right on the ball in addressing this issue. I appreciate that you didn’t just proceed to bashing Crossfit, but instead choosing to decorticate the “whys” of the latter’s inefficacy at training for sport specificity, namely baseball in this case. As you know, no one knowledgeable person in the Crossfit community (and there are many, Robb Wolf being one amongst many, many others…) has ever claimed that Crossfit was the optimal method for creating the world’s best sprinter, or an Olympic Lifting champion, or breaking the world record marathon time. There are shortcomings with Crossfit, but those are not necessarily Crossfit’s shortcomings; anyone surfing the Web could come upon ANY well-designed program really and “f$&k it up”, simply because it’s taken out of context or applied at the wrong time, for the wrong person or for the wrong reasons!
As always, great work!!!
September 15th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Very interesting & ironic article Eric, as I was thinking last night of the issues CF would have on the shoulder joint – for the general pop. not specific to baseball.
You could have added a 6th concern, CF is a cult and does not take lightly to any criticism.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Eric, great article as always.
As you probably know, I have a Crossfit program within my coaching facility. For the Average Joe, our Crossfit coaching beats any kind of regular gym membership for GPP: 15 minutes of dynamic warm-ups, 15 minutes of form & technique instruction, and a half hour of great supervised training. That sure beats “chest & tri’s on Monday, Back and Bi’s on Tuesday, Abs and shoulders on Wednesday, and leg press, leg curls, and leg extensions on Friday.”
We also have Sport Specific Coaching and personal training that are, well, personal. When people ask the difference, I tell them that with Crossfit, they adapt to the program. With Sport Specific Coaching or personal training, the program is adapted specifically for the client.
When someone signs up for the Crossfit program, they get three private training sessions for foundations work. In addition to teaching fundamental lifting techniques, this allows us to see what kind of biomechanical issues we are dealing with and then make recommendations about future training.
I find that a lot of Crossfit bashing comes from people that don’t understand Crossfit or are just intimidated by a program that will expose anyone’s weaknesses. That being said, I enjoy any debate on any program or programming.
Keep it coming. -Paul
September 15th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Hi Eric,
I own a CrossFit in Bozeman MT, and I would have to agree with what you have said as well. In fact I’m not sure who ever said that CrossFit would be good for baseball players. For most sports, specificity of training in terms of joint ROM, movement patterns, energy systems, etc. is huge.
As far as GPP goes CrossFit does enhance GPP, but I do agree that the randomization of workouts may not be entirely appropriate for Baseball, Football, and other Sports. However, you can specifically develop CrossFit-ish workouts to develop GPP for many sports without the randomness. I prefer planned or programmed workouts for athletes.
Not to mention, there is minimal time to work on an individuals compensation issues, injuries, and other biomechanical issues when doing CrossFit. Yes CrossFit is scaleable, but still not specific to one person with certain issues. CrossFit is a FAR better approach for general fitness in people with no biomechanical issues relative to the “old School” Bodybuilding method (Chest on day 1, Back on Day 2, pinky toes and fingers on day 3, etc) you get the point. And Bodybuilders typically do snail paced cardio….
Anyway, good write up.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Fantastic info as always Eric.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Eric,
Great article man, thanks for the killer info. I am not a big believer in crossfit being for most athletes.
September 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Great article, Eric! I really like how you offer detailed, well-reasoned arguments detailing why it may be inappropriate for certain populations. It’s so much easier – and dumber-sounding – when people just pronounce that a given training system sucks. CrossFit aside, I still say a different, even more over-hyped training system that uses light weights to “re-knit” the “deep muscle structure,” just plain sucks, ’nuff said!
September 15th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
i seriously feel that the future belongs to those who can discuss individual cases they deal with rather than critiquing systems. we have had enough of HIT VS High volume, arnold vs mentzer, jones vs weider…as they say, to each to his own.great on eric’s part to say ” For starters, I think that the camaraderie and enthusiasm that typifies their training groups is fantastic; anything that gets people (who might otherwise be sedentary) motivated to exercise is a plus”. bring the fun back guys.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Right On The Money.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I like the tone of this article. I used to be listed as a Crossfit affiliate, but for “corporate” reasons, I decided to just offer the classes on my own. It is an ancillary service of what we offer, which is predominately speed & sport-specific training. Like you, I believe there is no one way to train any one athlete. There are a lot of smart people out there, so learn from all.
I have worked with baseball players all my life, and I can say that you are right on with your points. Most of the throwing athlete’s issues, though, carry a common theme: lack of scapular motion. There is too much focus given to GH ROM & not enough on scapulo-thoracic ROM. I have seen lots of issues resolved (& prevented) by spending time increasing the range of motion of the scap.
Love the discussion….one size does not fit all…it fits ONE!
September 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Even your question is WRONG. CrossFit is a GPP program. It has been stated several times on the site that CF does NOT stand for sport-specific training. And what’s with “they tend to gravitate toward compound movements”? If you had spent at least 10 minutes on crossfit.com, you would have known that it is built on functional exercises, which are, by definition, compound movements. Anyhting less than that is unacceptable. Writng an article without researching your topic first? Well, good luck for your athletes.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
“Also, not everyone in the organization is ignorant of the (…) demands of energy system specific sports.”
“Even your question is WRONG. CrossFit is a GPP program. It has been stated several times on the site that CF does NOT stand for sport-specific training. ”
Yeah, I guess we all agree then…
September 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Not to take the easy way out as a crossfitter, but I agree with Robb and also Paul S. I thought these two comments settle this arguement if there was one. I think when a CrossFit arguement occurs it is generally because 1 side or both sides of the arguement are very extreme and one sided. Obviously if someone is training for one sport specifically they need some sort of sport-specific training which can still use CROSSFIT methodology. I do agree especially pitchers are in need of a very specific training program. I do think other position players can benefit from crossfit methodology in there programming whether it be 2 or 3 times a week. What is severely underestimated is the mental factor crossfit gives people to think while tired and to take on absolutely any task and it seem possible to him or her. I’ll take an athelete like that any day. Again I will agree baseball players may need a more specific training program more than any other major sport, but the CROSSFIT METHODOLOGY can be put into effect where appropriate. As for other sports like track, football, basketball, etc…I think it can be implemented easier and more frequently. I can speak from personal experience being an ex-collegiate basketball player that I was no where near the athletic ability that I am now as a crossfitter and my game has never been better. For those opposed to crossfit I’m assuming they have either a.) never given it a chance and have preconcieved notions about it and gotten bad advice from someone that didnt fully understand it themselves or b.) have gotten a bad experience themself from a bad crossfit instructor, and yes there are many bad crossfit trainers out there, just like their are and ton of bad coaches out there in any sport, or bad personal trainers, or bad physical therapists, or doctors etc, etc, etc….As a CrossFit Affiliate owner it sucks to say there are bad affiliates and trainers out there but that is the reality and it will never change with any program, sport, teacher or anything let us all just keep that in mind
September 20th, 2009 at 1:07 am
September 20th, 2009 at 8:55 am
.
One of my mottos it:
“If a system claims to be for everyone, it is no good for anyone.”
P.S. – Remember, the exercise program matches the client, not the program to the market.
Rick Kaselj of ExercisesForInjuries.com
.
September 20th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Thanks to everyone for the responses. Will try to get to everyone with questions and discussion-worthy statements in this reply…
Robb – thanks for note. Respectfully, I’d disagree with the thoughts on the kipping pull-ups, particularly in the context of baseball guys (specifically pitchers).
One of the biggest problems we encounter in baseball guys is that the crazy distraction forces (1.5 times body weight) at ball release causes some crazy structural adaptations to the posterior cuff/capsule, and that plays a big role in the development of the internal rotation deficit that predisposes folks to all the “subdivisions” of internal impingement (SLAP lesions, cuff tears, biceps tendon problems, etc).
I’m certainly not aware of any research that has been done on the distraction forces you’d see from the “free fall” during the kipping pull-up. And, frankly, I can’t imagine that any institutional review board would ever approve such a study.
A baseball weighs 5oz. and is self-propelled. An athlete might weight 220 with gravity accelerating him to the ground. I think it’s just asking for problems. This would be magnified with a congenital laxity guy (which has been verified by the research; the overwhelming majority of both position players and pitchers at the major league level has positive sulcus signs in BOTH shoulders).
Mrjling – There are definitely people who use this as “the perfect solution for baseball.” That’s why the question arises so much and I actually considered writing a newsletter on it! The quick answer is that Crossfit is GPP, but I chose to go into more detail on why more specificity is needed. So, you’re upset with me for answering a stupid question, not irritated with the person who asked the stupid question.
Paul – great post. It’s proof that there are loads of bright guys out there who know how to take a general template and modify it for people in accordance with their needs and the business model in place. Keep fighting the good fight.
Zsuzsa – please see my response to Mrjling above. To quote, “You’re upset with me for answering a stupid question, not irritated with the person who asked the stupid question.” Would I be an idiot if I told someone that the “fat-burning zone” was a load of crap?
It’s quite clear that you’re looking for confrontation with your response, and as much as you’re going to be disappointed, I’m not going to give it to you. Keep picking fights on the internet, and I’ll keep training 25 pro baseball players at my facility each off-season (along with hundreds of high school and college guys).
September 20th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Great post. Most people fail to realize that at some point certain “groups” or individuals need to have a program tailored to thier activities. Injury prevention and body symetry are not as widely recognized as they should be. I see the indusry slowly catching on to the concept with the Movement Screen analyses, and products fom yourself, Grey Cook, and a few other trainers.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:01 am
Eric,
thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment. Now I see better why you wrote the article in the first place – to answer a question, not just to badmouth CF. I realize I should have understood it earlier as you state it in the article itself, so my first statement was totally irrelevant.
However, let me clarify what I meant with the other points. I had the overall feeling that despite the fact that you criticized CF with seemingly innocent remarks, you in fact despise it. Your half-sentence “anything that gets people (who might otherwise be sedentary) motivated to exercise is a plus” to me reads like, “well, at least they do something, OK, let’s give the poor souls credit for that”. It feels that you place CF on the same level as Curves or Pilates. “So, good on them for those favorable traits” also doesn’t acknowledge their efforts in a variety of fields (rhabdomyolysis awareness, advocating O-lifting as a sport and as a tool for GPP, making thousands of free articles and videos available, etc.). I know you’re not their salesman, you’re not supposed to give a complete guide to the program, but then why mention some arbitrary points that don’t even have that much significance?
“Let’s just say that elite sprinters aren’t doing Crossfit” – again, this may be technically true, I don’t know, but I think “Let’s just say” makes the whole statement mocking.
“the last thing he needs to do is a 15-minute tri-set of cleans, kipping pull-ups, and push-ups – following by some 400m sprints” (sic) – several articles have dealt with the issue of programming, so if someone really wants to know what is the logic behind the “randomness”, they can get hold of that information. Programming and individualization do exist in CF, but you didn’t even give it the benefit of the doubt. A baseball player may not need “some 400m sprints”, and a good CF coach probably won’t give him that because the program doesn’t prescribe “some” sprints to anyone. I thinks someone who writes that CF workouts are made up of “some” exercises gave only a cursory glance to the list of the workouts. Again, “some” indicates that you suppose that these exercises are just thrown there and they make no sense.
I wasn’t looking for a fight, I hope it is clear now that I have elaborated on my points. I won’t “Keep picking fights on the internet” because I’ve never done that and never will, however, I do apologize for my harsh tone in the previos comment.
September 21st, 2009 at 8:46 pm
To all:
Clearly this is a controversial topic as all of the above comments have reinforced. The reality of the situation is that an, obviously, highly educated and well respected member of the fitness industry is offering his opinion (although generally supported by numerous studies and facts) to the rest of us who have asked him for his position on the matter. I think it’s safe to say that baseball, more so than most any other sport, creates asymmetries in the body that put us at risk for injury unless you train with precise specialization. The fact that Crossfit has become so popular is a clear indication that it is a beneficial system that will guarantee results….it’s just the type of results that is the important factor. Having 4% body fat and cut shoulders just IS NOT going to make you throw harder. I think where the mass confusion comes in is that crossfit.com is kind enough to post WOD’s that are for the general public (I say ‘general’ meaning the general in shape audience….so don’t try to beat me up zsusza!) and coaches/player who don’t know any better try implementing them for their players/themselves. Crossfit can be personalized and I think that maybe having 1 “crossfit” type day would do some good ….whether it be physical or mental, but obviously there are several contraindicated exercises for baseball players that Crossfit uses that you would have to avoid. AKA…find a very knowledgeable instructor….like Chad!!
As a former pitcher for the Tigers organization and a current Personal Trainer (and Coach), I think that EC is spot on in his programming and his results speak for themselves. It’s tough to argue against him as I seriously doubt that he would put Joe Public through the same workouts as he does his athletes…and that IS what this article is all about…how the general Crossfit program relates to the S & C of baseball players.
So thank you EC for addressing the issue and clearing the air on how you think CF applies (or doesn’t) to baseball players. You and the great Jerry Weinstein are 2 of the most well spoken, knowledgeable people on the topic of baseball players and S & C.
Keep em comin!
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:59 am
Interesting article. You make several accurate assessments about the specificity of the baseball athlete, pitchers in particular. However, in the context of an out of season conditioning program, CrossFit provides an exceptional base from which to improve the performance of pitchers.
Your points on the shoulder (and I would add wrists) are spot on. I treat my pitchers and volleyball players the same way I treat my general athletes with shoulder injuries. Scale appropriately and stick with the CF charter of Mechanics, Consistency and then Intensity. They still lift and squat overhead, and perform pullups, ring supports and handstands. Often their pullups are scaled to ring rows, or assisted with elastic bands.
I am curious why you suggest the energy demands of a pitcher as being closer to an elite sprinter than an olympic lifter. A pitch is a single (or double) core to extremity wave of contraction…lasting roughly the same amount of time it would take to snatch or clean a load from the ground. The time domains that sprinters excel at are rarely found, except on ground balls to the right side and backing up a throw from the outfield, which happens rarely in comparison to the amount of pitches thrown in an AB, inning or game.
We have also found the clean a particularly effective skill transfer exercise. The sequential firing of the hips, shoulders and then arms has easy transference to the same chain of events when moving laterally from the rubber to the plate. The variance in CF is also an awakening experience for our pitchers and swingers (Vball). Forcing an athlete to be competent in movements and time domains outside their comfort zone has done nothing but improve their baseball readiness. We’ve had reports of better balance on the mound, quicker feet from the stretch and on bunt plays, and most importantly…better focus and concentration on the pitch in hand.
In general, the “fitness” that CrossFit endorses does not carry the commercial, aesthetic connotation. Rather, fitness is considered more the ability to accomplish any task as it presents itself. The focus on midline stability, core to extremity movement, Mechanics>Consistency>Intensity, and overall ability to perform under duress make it a good base. Is it a stand alone program for a pitcher? No. But 3-4 scaled CrossFit WODs a week in the off-season, in conjunction with a performance diet, and sport specific practice/training is absolutely a winning recipe.
September 28th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Eric, I am an avid Crossfitter and also a sports peformance specialist. I could not agree with you more with regards to this topic. CrossFit is not now, nor ever will be sports specific, but a constantly varied, high intensity workout.Due to the constantly varied philosophy of CrossFit, it does not fit into periodized programming of Baseball. And although some of the workouts can be used for a general conditioning (shock the system) session for some sports, Baseball is not one of them. And I agree your program for Baseball players IS the best out there. So, as a huge advocate for CrossFit, I am agreeing that CrossFit is NOT for Baseball players. CrossFit (when performed correctly and under the right mentors) gets results. Eric, thank you for taking the time to actually LOOK at CrossFit and research it before making judgement. I wish more guru’s in the S&C world would do the same. And lastly, why are people comparing NSCA/Collegiate/Pro Sports to CrossFit?? There is no comparison. CrossFit is broad and general. Sports specific/NSCA is just that…SPORTS SPECIFIC!!
Awesome article! Very Professional. Thank you.
January 6th, 2010 at 11:10 am
Eric, great stuff. Always is.
Justin Bergh, I am not a believer, or a crossfitter in any aspect at all but somewhat agree with you that the clean is a skill-transfer exercise in pitchers. However, in relation to the WOD, how can you possibly enhance performance in a pitcher’s off-season program by doing random-based high intensity work? Don’t you need to follow linear/non linear periodization models to prevent your basic overtraining syndrome?
I am just curious of your perspective on this.
All in all, cross-fit and athletics should not mix. There are specific training protocols for each sport. One should have a program adapted for their sports-specific needs, rather than have to adapt to a general program for everybody. Just makes no sense at all.
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Dude…
http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/03/marlins-go-crossfit.tpl
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:20 pm
It looks like a case of CrossFit needing baseball than baseball needing CrossFit.
March 3rd, 2010 at 12:23 am
crossfit ruined my life
August 1st, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Eric- great article- looks like your focus is right where it needs to be- kudos to you on what you are doing. Found this article when looking for opinions on Crossfit for endurance athletes which is definitely off the baseball discussion, but just had to address one particular comment.
TO Zsuzsa with regard to your comment:
Your half-sentence “anything that gets people (who might otherwise be sedentary) motivated to exercise is a plus” to me reads like, “well, at least they do something, OK, let’s give the poor souls credit for that”. It feels that you place CF on the same level as Curves or Pilates.
I haven’t done Crossfit and am intrigued by what it offers, but am insulted by your comments regarding pilates. I invite you to my pilates studio anytime as you seem to be pretty fairly under-educated when it comes to fitness regimens- to be lumped in with Curves is a ridiculous insult- you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Pilates is a specialized regimen taught by highly trained instructors and is employed by many athletes that go above and beyond the gym or the group class. Curves is a franchise. Pilates is not for the mindless, nor those looking for a quick fix. It is the most challenging workout that I have had the pleasure of teaching and of experiencing- and my normal week consists of 70 miles of running to compliment my pilates work. Please do your homework before you insult something you know nothing about.
September 23rd, 2010 at 6:18 pm
I think that everyone can benefit from Pilates. I have only tried some basic stuff at home, but very quickly I found that even simple activation of the pelvic floor muscles is very important for improving posture. Asymmetric movements, I believe, are also very important for good posture and general performance (I am not interested in specialization.. most of us are in the real world
It is really quite a challenge to correct the hours of sitting at a computer every day.
Eric you’re making me think twice about doing the kipping pullups. In general, I am not convinced that the main site WODs are chosen using thoughtful programming considerations. It would be helpful if there were descriptions for each day that explained the reasoning used to select the exercises and weights/times.
Kelley Star has an interesting site now called Mobility WoD… He is a physical therapist if I’m not mistaken.
December 21st, 2010 at 12:50 pm
One issue I find with some in the Crossfit community is that many have a us against them mentality. Even in the posts seen above there a few Crossfitters who basically say what they do (GPP) is far superior to other gyms, because all other gyms do is a bodybuilding split. Here’s an example of some blatant Crossfit ignorance I’ve had to deal with. A local Crossfit coach went to speak at a local weight watchers group (where I also speak) and told them “you can’t get this workout anywhere else!”. He then proceeded to have them do bw squats, jog 100 yards, do pushup ups, repeat and so on. WoW! Rocket science they can’t get anywhere else. Oh yeah, he also said “if you can’t squat below parrallel then you’re waisting your time.” That’s quite the blanket statement….
At other workshops I’ve met Crossfitters who I admire and find knowledgable, but for the Crossfit I think it comes down to quality control. What do you need to do to be a Crossfit coach? Go to a weekend cert? Pay a lot of money? What does this mean? Nothing. Now if a Crossfit coach has a CPT, or an advanced cert (CSCS or HFS) then at least I know they have some kind of knowledge base; if they have a degree in the field that’s even better.
There is also reference to “Crossfit methodology”…what methodology is that? GPP? Well, fitness enthusiasts have been doing GPP for a long, long time.
September 4th, 2011 at 6:17 am
Remember, it’s called CrossFIT not CrossHealth. Just look at the number of “athletes” who come out of there all torn up. Whenever you put compound lifts, competition, and the ego in the room your looking for trouble. If you can survive great. Unfortunately, too many folks get “a great workout ” and the ability to survive it mixed up with one that’s specific to an athlete’s needs.
To me this is like comparing apple and oranges. They both taste good but are completely different.
Unfortunately, crossfitters think they can hit all arenas with their style of training. They are the Jehovah’s witness of training sometimes; kinda freaky, and thinking everyone should be doing it. It’s good stuff, just keep it off my front porch because it’s not for me or my family (athletes).
September 4th, 2011 at 7:29 am
I don’t particularly ‘know’ what CF is about. But to be honest, from all the people I know who do it or have done it, I’ve never heard of anyone getting ‘specialist’ programming to cater for them as an athlete. Isn’t the main attraction to CF the camaraderie? So if you are doing your ‘specialist’ program, then who are you doing it with? This is just me not really knowing but just putting it out there for comment!!
I rate the exercises and concepts of CF but it’s horses for courses. Fits some and not others. If you like it, then do it. If you don’t then who gives a crap? But I continually see this conflict that honestly just doesn’t need to be there. Who are these people trying to convince anyway???? The official board of “This is how every athlete is going to be trained” of the World??? If an athlete chooses CF and gets gains, then great. If they get no gains and leave, then so be it. If they get injured, then they’ve learned what’s not for them – same for using different coaches and training systems.
Eric is easily one of the most educated and intelligent trainers on the planet, so credit where it’s due – thanks for your wisdom mate!
September 4th, 2011 at 7:37 am
Nice article Eric. I am glad that you addressed the issue with Crossfit at a particular sport and within that sport a player rather than saying Crossfit was not good for all sports in general. You can stop reading here because the rest is me just running my mouth. I am a sometimes Crossfiter sometimes “normal” weightlifter and I try to balance the two. Since my issues are the ease with which I gain weight and some bad knees and back from 23 years in the Marines(I retire in Nov) which make it difficult for me to run outside and with my dislike of cardio machines I do appreciate the fat burning qualities of Crossfit. I see alot of people comment about injuries and poor technique with Crossfit but personally have seen none of this and quite the contrary have seen very professional instruction, something you do extremely well. I am 47 and check my ego at the door though and I scale the workout and or weights to match my ability and take into consideration my injuries. I do have serious issue with the Doc’s that tell me “people like you should just swim and ride a bike” I agree there are knotheads in Crossfit but you can find them at any gym on any given day too performing “normal” weight training. The camaraderie and intensity of the Crossfit group is addictive and motivational. Bottom line after all this is; thanks for the article, always interesting and informative.
Semper Fi,
J
September 4th, 2011 at 7:55 am
Great article and responses Eric. It’s weird to hear people get so defensive about what a style of training is called. So… working hard, with explosive movements, in good form, on compound/functional movements needs a name? That’s not new and it doesn’t need a name–unless of course you want to market it. Bodybuilders only do bodypart split routines with no O lifts and plenty of steady-state cardio? No, they do what it takes to get big and ripped (which isn’t always healthy) because that is their sport. Good programming is good programming. Someone could take one of Eric’s workouts and call it a scaled/sport specific Crossfit workout. I’m not sure why people have to call something a Crossfit workout or a bodybuilding workout. The goal dictates the workout. Simple. Write a program that addresses the sport, not a “crossfit” workout that does the same. That’s so odd. Good coaches are good coaches and good programming is good programming—who cares what it’s called?
September 4th, 2011 at 8:30 am
Great article. I think Cressy has many valid points that I wont even attempt to dissect. When a person (like myself) stands back and takes a look at CF (which I did) and looks at it from a longevity angle, one (like myself) will see some flaws with it’s methods. To say it best “CF is good for everyone, but isn’t for everyone.”
My personal exploration with programming and different modalities has shown me that injury rates within the sport of CF are astronomical, and after visiting more than a dozen CF gyms some trainers/owners are clueless. Likely not to their own fault, they think they actually know what they are doing. And I won’t call it ignorance either. Napoleon Hill stated that “a true professional never stops learning,” and many think sticking to CF knowledge is all they need, when in fact people like ANuFit, Cressy, and countless others pull information from multiple sources.
I will end on this note, CF Certifications do nothing more than stand on the surface of a magic ball that has more layers than one would like to believe. The issue is that people think the after CF workout hurt is a “good” thing because CF is supposed to be a “good” program. However, many they fail to realize that in the long run, injuries will follow as the body is repeatedly broken down. “What I think may be a little extreme (for a workout), is a good workout for someone.”
Thanks for sharing
CF is HIIT and nothing more. I like it cause I get to mix up my workouts. For the past 10 years I was doing the same routine and CF made working out fun again as I REFUSE to be a lard ass
I read the comments and cringed at that one dude. I think people like him get defensive for other reasons than honest critiques of CF (like when you talk bring up historical facts about the inconsistencies of the Bible to a devout, or tell a no carb junkie that there are carbs in almost everything so they in fact are cheating their system (maybe, who knows, but Im not a genius). I think if CF made it a prerequisite to be a CPT from any certifying program before anyone could open a gym it would stop a lot of the foolishness. However, a lot of these gyms fail cause eventually their lack of knowledge overpowers constant revenue.
Rob Orlando (whom I admire because he can lift a lot of heavy shit, but he’s also five foot nothing, and us tall gyms hate short people for anything weightlifting wise…of couse Im joking) does a lot of strongman training and began posting daily Strongman WODs and the other day he posted “Find the heaviest weighted vest and sprint a mile.” The issue is that some people cancel out their common sense brains when reading this stuff all while I’m screaming from the rafters “HEY, YOU’VE NEVER RUN A MILE IN THE PAST 5 YEARS, THIS ISN’T A GOOD IDEA BUDDY!!!!!” but like whole wheat bread and oatmeal and corn, and brown rice, people are gonna eat that shit up without looking at it’s entirety.
I speak to many CFers, and most who had a physical life prior to their CF days eventually wean off doing CF everyday and throw in other aspects of training. This is likely due to constant injuries (yes, I even know CF trainers/coaches who don’t do CF all the time). I’ve even had CF coaches TRY to argue with me telling me that much KBs in a routine isn’t “pure” CF. What is this world coming to!!!! that someone would critique my personal training that I do outside in a park because I dont want to pay $150 bucks a month to have someone with less knowledge than me to tell me to front squat my body weight for time 50 times AND complete Burpees every 3 mins during (why, please explain why besides “constantly varied! Why take my focus off of lifting 225# and make me do a silly exercise like a BURPEE (hey did you know that a company is named Burpee, they make seeds, check them out at your local Wal-Mart)? To show how “weak” my posterior chain is, and how much I need to stay in your gym?)
Please take note of the humor laden tone throughout this post, I hope I did not offend anyone because I will likely never read or reply, so save yourself the trouble and pick up a good book and read something other than the CFJ (all the answers aren’t in there anyway). Oh, and Cressy is correct, Richard Simmons once had an obese man clap to lose weight, so, hey whatever works and gets people moving!
September 4th, 2011 at 9:13 am
I realize this is an older post, so many who have made comments may not read this…However, there is a growing opinion in the CF community that CF can be used to make an athlete (regardless of sport or position) a better athlete.
To see what I mean, feel free to read this article,
http://www.sicfit.com/article/7344-A-New-Direction-for-Pros.
One statement, in particular, stands out to me, “…will sport-specific uses of CrossFit replace more traditional periodized training over time?”
By definition CF is a “program [that] delivers a fitness that is, by design, broad, general, and inclusive. Our specialty is not specializing.” (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html)
So, if by CF’s own definition of its’ program, is it still CF if it is used in a specialized manner to train athletes. And please don’t misunderstand me, CF principals can be applied to training athletes, but is it not a completely different program at that point?
To me, saying that CF (using the CF definition above) is optimal for athletic training is a marketing tactic to bring athletes into CF affiliates. However, CF really has to be changed into something else entirely to meet the varying needs of different athletes, and even athletes who play different positions in the same sport. A competent coach would not train football players and tennis players using the same program or exercises…the needs are completely different.
The bottom line is to not get defensive. CF cannot be a perfect fit for everyone on the planet, and everyone who says it can is being overly radical. Are there aspects of CF that can be applied to athletic train, yes! But CF, by it’s own definition, is not specific or specialized enough for all sport/postion specific athletes.
September 4th, 2011 at 9:31 am
Eric,
I LOVE YOU! (My husband has accepted this fact, as well)
Keep speaking the truth!
Anne
September 4th, 2011 at 9:43 am
Remember CrossFit is a GPP program and is best applied to build GPP. For a professional athlete I’d highly modify CF to meet their specific training needs. Many of the principles still apply, but the approach must be different. I think of the basic CF program as a good general fitness program.
September 4th, 2011 at 10:27 am
EC — First off, great article although I was a little mislead into thinking this would be your thoughts on CrossFIt as a whole rather than simply how it deals with baseball only. I know that’s your specialty, my bad for thinking otherwise. Secondly, I am much along the same thinking as Paul S. in that CrossFit has it’s place in a GPP program and EVERY athlete would benefit from it’s methodology and teachings of Olympic lifts. That said, it does not offer any kind of specificity which is where guys like you, Mike Robertson, Paul Southern, and myself come in. I feel this is one of those instances where can have it both ways if done correctly.
Regarding your statement on asymmetries that your pitchers have, and most athletes in general, guys like Kelly Starrett of MobilityWod have dedicated their lives to fixing these problems. His teachings, taken along with Gray Cook and Mike Boyle, and that different. Kelly is amazing at identifying imbalances and asymmetries and fixing the problems. And he’s a CrossFit guy.
There are very intelligent individuals in the CrossFit world that do a lot of research. Unfortunately, there are a lot that simply attend a weekend seminar, obtain a certification, and call themselves Coach. THose are the ones that ruin it for everyone else.
I apologize for ranting a bit. I know I got a little off topic. I love the CrossFIt methodology but I also know it’s not for everyone and definitely does not provide the specificity needed for baseball. Great stuff EC, I love reading your blog here and articles on T-Nation. Keep it coming!
September 4th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
I was in great shape before starting cross fit (not to be confused with being athletic, but rather I could run fast, run distance, and lift a fair amount of weight), and dedicated myself for a little over to Cross Fit greatly improving my times in the workout of the days; however, I noticed my runs were slower and I didn’t have the endurance for long runs (so much for the transference), and I couldn’t lift as heavy as I did previouly. I think this simply validates the principe that your body becomes its function, and while CrossFit done intelligently is a good general conditioning program (although I seen several physically weaker individuals get severely hurt doing CrossFit, because although it claims to be progressive when you’re going for max reps or sets within a specific time frame, that doesn’t allow an out of shape individual to progress safely) for those who are already in shape. You won’t become a strong man doing Crossfit, you won’t become a great endurance athlete, or a great football player, baseball player, soccer player, etc. doing Crossfit. What I think you will see (and already are in some cases) is Crossfit like workouts being developed for specific sports.
Crossfit started a new fitness revolution that took the general public beyond mindless jogging workouts, and they should get full credit for their efforts and success, but like Stan said CF has become a cult and don’t kindly to criticism, which means the core CF community can’t evolve based on learning. You either learn and adapt or become irrelevant over time.
September 4th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Well written piece which is much in line with my way of thinking.
Good job Eric!
September 4th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
As a physical therapist and Crossfit level one trainer, I would like to comment that as Eric stated, the initial question itself is a stupid one, and I believe asked by individuals that want to believe that Crossfit is a magical solution to all fitness and wellness issues in all cases (It would make our jobs as health and fitness professionals easier but it’s not reality).
The reality is that training Crossfit is best for training for Crossfit. This is because Crossfit is itself a sport, and as with most sports there is a high risk of injury, which is not acceptable when your are working with an athlete who above all else needs to remain off the injured list. Crossfit certainly has benefit for improved performance in other sports but the improvements seen are general with regards to a variety of different fitness modalities (10 specifically defined by Crossfit) which is awesome for general fitness and athleticism but certainly not meant to be specific to any one sport, and definitely not meant to prevent injuries.
All sports (especially baseball) need some form of specificity for optimal performance as well as (and most importantly) for injury prevention.
Crossfit was not designed to have this function and that is directly stated when certifying new trainers.
I find Crossfit to be one of the most effective and efficient ways to improve general conditioning but I do not believe it should be thought of as a method of sport specific training or injury prevention.
September 5th, 2011 at 7:20 am
wow crossfit in the states looks to have become scientology.. dont crtique them or else. ha.. guys eric knows what hes talkin about, put down the keyboard and get back to doing 50rep sets of cleans with 60lbs. your badass..
September 5th, 2011 at 7:23 am
also this is relevant.. everything hilter says is true.. circuit training..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z2b2x6C5o0
September 5th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
From the CF website: “We’ve used our same routines for elderly individuals with heart disease and cage fighters one month out from televised bouts. We scale load and intensity; we don’t change programs.”
I would say this, if you are an elite athlete trying to get to the next level and your coach has you doing the same routine as your friend’s grandfather with heart disease, (even if they are scaling the load and intensity), then you should get a new coach.
Looking at today’s WOD from the CF website I also have to shake my head as I try to imagine a single athlete I would give this workout to, scaled or otherwise.
For time:
20 Muscle-ups
25 Lowers from an inverted hang on the rings, slowly, with straight body and arms
30 Ring handstand push-ups
35 Ring rows
40 Ring push-ups
But then again, who needs shoulders?
If you want to compete at the CF games, by all means, CF your brains out.. Otherwise, you should train like an athlete.
September 5th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Great article, Eric. Very valid points not only for baseball players but the everyday population. I recently wrote a similar article based on a 2 month trial of CF to get the full picture. I found very similar concerns. http://dbstrength.com/the-crossfit-conundrum/
September 7th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Eric,
I have one of your DVD’s and read most of your articles. This is the first time I heard mention of a left rib flair. I have always been insecure about my left rib flair and thought it was just bad genetics. So, are you saying something can be done?
September 8th, 2011 at 4:29 am
Yes, Byron; check out http://www.posturalrestoration.com. Great ideas there; we’ve had excellent success implementing their methods.
October 4th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
For those of you wondering who would even suggest to use CrossFit for baseball, there are many high schools and junior college programs, like my own, that wrongly believe CrossFit is the way to go when it is not for baseball
September 2nd, 2012 at 6:41 am
Great Article, Eric. Sport-specif demands is more than a “workout of the day”. I think we have to study the sport and plan what the athlete needs. Some times they need to get mobility, stability, strength and the only way is screen your athletes to see what is necessary… Crossfit don´t work with screening.. it´s just a fitness program.
September 2nd, 2012 at 6:56 am
Eric,
I loved this post when I read it the first time around and enjoyed re-reading it again, along with all the comments.
September 2nd, 2012 at 7:00 am
My wife attended a Crossfit gym for about 6 months and while I applauded CF for getting her motivated to exercise regularly and intensely, I didn’t believe it was correct to push people to doing exercises to complete failure. Usually this occurs while lifting heavy loads and a complete breakdown of form. Seemed like a recipe for injuries. In fact, my wife has a nagging shoulder injury now and she refuses to stop working out to treat it properly. Blind adherence to CF mentality also seems to be a common outcome.
September 3rd, 2012 at 10:53 am
Good article and thank you for always sharing educated and well researched information.
September 3rd, 2012 at 12:51 pm
Agreed, Diego. Thanks for your input.
September 3rd, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Happy Labor Day Eric,
I have been following you for some time, but after reading today’s post response(s); yours and theirs…decided it was time to thank you for all the info you share. Your credentials speak for themselves; still I have always thought so highly of your writing, not only that you share all you do, but in your articulation. And now today, in handling your response to those posts that came off like “fightin’ words”, well…your well-poised response just really impressed me all the more.
Some of the “battle” seems so silly as the “title” of this specifically states “Crossfit for Baseball?” and your first paragraph specifically addresses that you have had many inquiries; hence, the article (ie., answering a question)! So people read what it says; and calm down…
Again, I thank you Eric. You are a quality trainer, educator and professional. And after today’s reading I have gained even more respect for you as a quality human being.
Lastly, congrats on the new facility! It looks great; job well done.
Keep it coming! …you have a wealth of knowledge! …and again, a talent in sharing it and educating others. And I personally THANK YOU!
P.S. I concur…. :0D
Best, Joy
September 3rd, 2012 at 3:37 pm
I should of said COACH! But you get my drift…
September 3rd, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Thanks, Joy!
September 20th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
As an ex-professional baseball player (catcher) that now crossfits, I wish I did this in the off season when I played. I would of course throw, hit and catch as well to get my “position specific” work in.
My core, my flexability, my athleticism, and endurance has never been as good as it is now.
The amount of body control that it takes to play baseball at the highest level goes beyond isolated lift movements and sprints. Don’t isolate muscles, train them to work in harmony to do dynamic, explosive movements.
I’m not a “crossfit junkie” or anything like that. It’s just my take as an ex-baseball player that wishes this was available when I played.
September 20th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Thanks for your contribution, Jim.
October 21st, 2012 at 7:57 am
I love that this thread has gone on as lomg as it has. Since 2009, I would think that maybe even Eric has changed his thoughts on Crossfit as a training program. Factual or not, statements like: “I’ll keep training 25 pro baseball players at my facility each off-season (along with hundreds of high school and college guys)” are no longer relevant as there are many CrossFit gyms that train dozens of pro athletes of all sports. Those that publicly bash CrossFit usually pay the bills training a different way. The CrossFit “one size fits all” program works incredibly well for a host of previously stated reasons. However, CrossFit has also evolved in it’s understanding of sports training. Programs like CrossFit Football and CrossFit Endurance certainly prove that even CrossFitters have accepted that GPP is not the optimal way to train for the “known and knowable” demands of perticular sports. As for the contention that CrossFit causes injury, please understand that it is and always has been a sport of it’s own in implementation. To suggest that the injuries incurred by pitching are simply a part of the game but that injuries doing CrossFit are somehow as a result of poor programming is misleading. I train hundreds of athletes that play many different sports and in my experience, CrossFit is the safest of them all. Check the numbers on hockey, football even cheerleading(which is not surprisingly the most) injuries and you will find, as I did, that CrossFit is the safest sport I coach. We play these sports knowing that the risk of injury exists. We want to compete, challenge ourselves and our teammates and have fun. We know we are going to get hurt but we do it anyway. There are plenty of sport specific training facilities trying to implement Boyle/Cressy style programming and doing a less than professional job. The best sport specific coaches I know are using the CrossFit methodolgy regularly to improve performance. I bet most of them own at least one of Eric’s books(I know I do). Let’s all evolve.
March 20th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Not even debatable. I’ll leave it at that. Eric after spending thousands of hours researching strength and conditioning you are far and away the most knowledgeable individual in my opinion in the industry. I ‘m not here to tout my credentials but I have to give credit where it is do. Thank you very much for the wealth of information made available on your site. I h
March 21st, 2013 at 6:05 am
Wow, thanks, Steve!